Adopting a systems thinking approach for nature

During this conversation, Julia and Heather touch on:

• Understanding systems thinking

• Principles of biodiversity net gain

• Effective stakeholder engagement

• Implementing nature positive strategies

• Driving innovation through diversity

Intro: Welcome to Mott MacDonald's podcast, Nature Positive: The Inside Story. In this podcast series, our host, Julia Baker, will be talking to industry leaders and experts about nature related policy, advisory law and much more. In today's episode, Julia sits down with our very own Heather Marshall to connect the dots between systems thinking and nature.

So don't forget to subscribe and most importantly, enjoy this episode.

Julia: Hello, welcome to our podcast, Nature Positive: The Inside Story. It's lovely to have you here.

Heather: Thanks very much for having me, Julia.

Julia: What do you do for a job?

Heather: First and foremost, I'm a mum of two beautiful, very rambunctious boys and that certainly keeps me busy and very entertained. During the day, I work for Mott McDonald in our Water division working in an asset management and investment planning capacity.

Julia: What does that mean?

Heather: It's really about looking after our water infrastructure, both the natural and the man-made infrastructure, so that it can deliver reliable water and wastewater services for the future.

Julia: One of our first conversations was about systems thinking. Now, I'd heard about it, but you know what? It's one of those things you hear that you're not really quite sure what it is. How would you describe it?

Heather: I would describe systems thinking as a way of seeing a problem or something holistically. So, viewing the sum of the parts not just as the simple sum, but actually looking at the function that those parts can deliver collectively as a system. So, how things fit together, how you might join up the dots.

A great example of a system, and one that I use when I'm talking to others and giving them a simple example really, is if you think of a car and each of the parts of a car, the components, has a particular function it performs. Wheels roll around, windows protect you from the sun and rain and wind. You know, a roof over your head and doors to close and an engine to propel you. But it's the sum of those together. When those parts of that automobile system work collectively, their function is transformational. That car can get you from point A to point B, which is very different to the function that each of those components could deliver in its own right.

Julia: So, it's the connections that happen together within a system that make for the best outcome.

Heather: Yeah, I think so. Outcomes, you've mentioned outcomes there. That is key. And I think that is one of our biggest opportunities as we move forward for nature, but also for society and all the other outcomes that are meaningful to us. You know, we've been so focused on outputs for such a long time, probably the nature of our capitalist society and the way that we progress through school, but actually reminding ourselves of the outcomes, what it is we're aiming for, that's a really important starting point. And when you start from the outcomes, you'll naturally find, in many instances, you need to consider the system and the wider systems that are there and at play to help you realise those outcomes.

Julia: It's really interesting, actually, and I think you've talked about this, we already do systems thinking. And I don't think we realise this, but having that clarity in terms of what is systems thinking is actually quite helpful because then you can use it to your best advantage. For you, was there a pivotal moment when you're like, OK, this is a thing and it's really important?

Heather: Yeah, there's a few actually. It's lovely to be able to share these stories. When my second son was born, I needed a bit of a career break. Where I was working at was a bit intense and I just needed a pause. And so I went to this baby food company. Also quite opportunistic because I got free food that way. It's called Ella's Kitchen and, when I joined, they were on their journey to becoming a B Corp. And it was amazing to be a part of that journey and actually get to see this balanced approach to measuring performance as a force for good in the world. And actually to see the breadth that the B Corp accreditation brought, it’s almost like an old-fashioned Harvard Business balance scorecard, the HBS balance scorecard.

I think looking at things in the round, that was a system, each of those pillars or whatever you might like to call them, as part of that B Corp assessment, were integral to the functioning, the high performance of that organisation. And that recognition was amazing. Integrating things like customer sentiment, employee satisfaction and engagement, supply chain management and sustainability, governance structures, looking at all of that in the round. So, that was my first introduction to systems and it was brilliant.

And the other thing Ella's Kitchen did, which was really unique, was they sent the whole entire company on Thinking Differently training, which just happened to be the month that I joined. They felt that it was within everyone's gift to think differently, to be innovative in their job, that they weren't going to retain an R&D function, they wanted everyone to innovate in whatever capacity it was that they contributed to the business, whether you're in HR, procurement, commercial, you name it. And I think, well, I've taken that with me from a systems perspective. I think the same is true when we talk about systems thinking, people often step back and think, oh, that's really complex. As a technical academic exercise, I'm not ready to engage with that. But in actual fact, it's about how do we all encourage one another to develop and enhance our system thinking capabilities, which are innate. We're born with a capacity to think in systems. That's how we experience the world when we first emerge. So, really, it's how we can bring that out across all the different jobs and people.

Julia: It's funny, isn't it? I really like that because things get so busy at work and you actually have to have a moment to say, no, no, no, you're the R&D department. We all are. That's what I think about nature and biodiversity net gain. Working in construction, biodiversity net gain is a team sport. Everyone's a part of that. And coming back to biodiversity net gain, at the heart of it, it was always about, OK, we've built this housing or this road or this railway, and biodiversity is better off, nature's better off. So, the heart of biodiversity net gain was always about development drives nature recovery in that way. And I worry now that, with mandatory net gain, because there are so many rules and there's so many requirements, we've kind of lost our way with that a little bit. And I kind of get lost, I've got to get the metric right. I've got to get minimum validation. How do you think systems thinking can help get back to what was the heart of biodiversity net gain?

Heather: Yeah, I think it's really tricky, actually. I think there's a risk, with the introduction of metrics and marketplaces, that we oversimplify what is a beautifully complex challenge, or opportunity, you might reframe it, and that that simplification can actually lead you down the wrong path. We've seen that a little bit with carbon markets, this oversimplified target established, and ambition to get to net zero, but at what expense? And are we really delivering the right sustainable solutions for people and planet to have that net zero target? I worry about that oversimplification.

So, what a systems thinking approach would do to biodiversity net gain would be to, actually, in the first instance, try and better define the need. So, if the need is housing, from an outcomes perspective, what do I need from my house to serve the needs of the people in the communities who are going to reside there? And that goes well beyond just the four walls and the windows and the roof, right? I think what we'll find – and systems and systems tools like systems mapping play an important role – is that by understanding these interdependencies, these core dependencies that people have on nature, that biodiversity net gain would be part of the needs definition in the first instance rather than an enhancement at the end of the development.

Who would want to live in a place without greenery? There's so many statistics out there, right? About the value of living near to green space and having access to the ecosystem services, the clean air, the temperature regulation, all the things that provides us. So, I guess the first opportunity is to say, if I take a systems approach, rather than looking at the end of game BNG metric and marketplace delivery, how can I embed BNG into the core option that I'm putting forward to the public in designing that house in the first instance?

Julia: I think it's really interesting. You just said there's a need and what do we need to do to fulfil the need? There's a need, there's a housing shortage. There's a need, there's a mental health crisis. There's a need, there's a physical health crisis. There's all these needs and nature can actually be part of that.

Heather: Yes, that's fantastic. Exactly that. So, that's hard because, as an accountant, I love to sit by myself in my really complex spreadsheets and not have anyone bother me while I solve the world's problems. A little bit of Google search now and then and job done. I'll print my report, off you go. That's done. But that's not the way it works, is it? My hand was forced a little bit in my last organisation where I had to take on a role in stakeholder engagement, which for an accountant, let me tell you, is a big ask, right? So, I went there with my little Excel background thinking, oh, no problem, I'll just take some feedback and I'll already know where we're going with this.

But the truth is, stakeholder engagement is absolutely critical to any kind of successful programme or project delivery or outcomes that you want to achieve as an organisation. And the stakeholders are varied, their opinions are different and there is no right or wrong answer. We don't have the systems at the moment in our organisations, we don't have the software or the accounting platforms, to speak to one another really well. It's very difficult. We capture information in different ways and our planning cycles are out of alignment and there's challenge after challenge, but systems allow you to just sit down together and start by simply drawing a map. Just draw a systems map. You don't have to use software, although you can, but get a pen and pencil and maybe a few coloured pencils that you steal from the kids drawer and have a go at looking at what are my dependencies and whom do I impact?

And then that leads me to my other systems prompt, actually, which is why I was like, oh, systems, yes, this has to be the way. I'd taken my kids to see the fireworks a couple of years ago and it was typical, in fact, even a little bit atypical, English weather. It was bucketing it down, lightning, thunder, torrential downpour, you name it. We stuck it out and then, when we were driving back, it was a little bit of a drive from our home, we were driving along this road and I had to laugh, except that it was so sad to see, but there's three Thames Water vans parked next to an overwhelmed sewer. So, there, straight away – fair play to Thames Water, and my sincere gratitude for their responsiveness – they're there, right next to an overwhelmed local authority road, completely submerged underwater. Right next to the railway line. And you think, each of these organisations is holding on to this risk or this challenge that they're experiencing with nature. It’s coming through a climate lens, but it's nature at the end of the day. And they're all holding that risk discreetly and they're all trying to manage it in their own way. And they're all trying to pay for its mitigation from their own bucket or budget. And actually, what would that look like if those people came together and had a shared understanding of what's a consistent risk across all parties and how best to address that risk?

Julia: I think you're right because when you say that, it just makes sense. It's connections, isn't it?

Heather: It's connections. And actually that BNG road map published by the GFI recently really brings that to life, because actually, when you look at enabling that marketplace, so let's say that I reconcile myself to the fact that we have a need for a marketplace alongside other initiatives to help drive this Nature Positive strategy, you do need that investment. How are we going to grow and facilitate that marketplace, right? Because if we're going to have one, we'd want it to thrive. And I think that's a game where you need to apply a systems perspective to say, well, what are my financial systems which are touched on as part of that when we look at central governance? And who the market operators are. And we look at the supply side, where are these opportunities coming from? And demand? Who's going to procure them? Who's there to buy them? There are so many different systems at play, and understanding your economic incentives and your system of regulation and what that looks like, that's going to be fundamental to the success of that marketplace.

Julia: You did raise a really good point about not being too simple, but not being too complicated that people can't get to grips with it. I think there's different layers, one layer is, how do we communicate this in a way that corporates and business people can understand risk and understand opportunities, versus the ecological complexity that goes into establishing a woodland and getting it to thrive over 30 years? Where do you see that kind of acceptability between, a number makes a difference when you are in a boardroom and you can point to something, but that number doesn't take away anything that the ecologist and the landscape architect would bring with their technical expertise.

Heather: I think the number is critical. I think the TCFD, the Task Force for Climate related Financial Disclosures and the Nature related Financial Disclosures have played a really important role, and will do so going forward, to simply get nature and climate on the balance sheet, to give it a space in the financial discourse that the board are going to be engaging with, to make that part of the conversation. So the numbers matter. We're starting with the base, what have we got? What nature is there? And that's part of the opportunity. I think linking nature, when we talk about finances, people are interested in a revenue stream. How can we get better, through our systems lens, at linking nature to the outcomes it delivers?
So for example, why would it be so much easier to introduce air conditioning or central air into a house instead of a green roof? Why are the two not part of the same suite of options and easier to finance in a traditional way that a developer might? Why do we look at DAC, the Direct Air Capture, carbon opportunities instead of beavers building dams, reinstating beaver dams which, at the end of the day, has similar carbon benefits? Why are we automatically geared toward this one particular type of solution? How can systems help unlock that and where are the numbers to underpin that? I think that's where we're a little bit stuck on a couple of fronts. I think we're not great at measuring or valuing ecosystem services, and that's a difficult thing to do.

Julia: I think there's some fantastic and amazing natural capital ways to do that, with natural capital accounts, and some amazing experts, but it's not yet mainstream.

Heather: Yeah, and also I think we do it from the perspective of nature, which is right, and that's where it starts from. However, if I want to engage with the private sector or the innovative companies that are going to disrupt technology and give me a solution to my need as a human that's in a Nature Positive way, how can I articulate that ecosystem service proposition in a more marketable, commercialised manner.

Julia: It's about needs and then about mapping.

Heather: I think so, yeah. If you think of it like SAS, Software As a Service, that's a catchphrase now, isn't it? That's really emerged. I think it's applying this as a service lens to other things. What's the service that we're being provided? Is it clean air? Is it water to drink? Is it a temperature regulation service in your home? And right now we pay for assets and that's our historical approach and it's easy, it's reductionist. We have control over the asset. We know how many years it's going to last, what that long run maintenance cost and programme looks like. When we talk about nature in place of that, there's a lot more uncertainties. Those costs aren't necessarily there at the moment in the data, nor is the value that monetisation of the service that customers are willing to attribute. So I think there's some work to do still in terms of bottoming out those potential revenue streams and those future costs implications.

Julia: It's a really lovely way, actually, that you're saying this because, at the end of the day, natural capital accounting or, you know, the biodiversity metric, these are tools to use. But what you're saying is that they need to be used within the systems.

Heather: Yeah.

Julia: Otherwise we're just throwing out tools, getting some data, getting some information. But how do we connect all these things up? And for what? And then there's the cost.

Heather: Exactly. And the cost is OK. There are two lenses, I think, there's the risk lens, which is really compelling, right?

Julia: Risk to who?

Heather: Risk to anyone, you can go all the way through the value chain, but risk is something that we're getting better at understanding. And that's where you have to look at your impact on, and your dependency on, nature. So, if you're a business, it's the risk that nature provides, whatever integral service it provides, for you to be able to generate your revenue stream, to make your widgets and sell them to a marketplace. Without nature and the inability to manufacture those widgets, you're going to go out of business. So, being able to understand your risk and how much risk you're willing to tolerate. OK, if half of the forest goes, I'm probably all right. But if I lose 3/4, I'm not. That’s really helpful for companies to start to address things that are reliant on nature and help to move in a Nature Positive direction.

Julia: Yeah, we're moving from that space of biodiversity net gain. It's so tangible because it's on a project, it's habitats, it's very physical. You've got the landscape plan, you've got the ecologist, versus the risk to a business from what they depend on nature for. And that's such an important discussion, and that's such a needed discussion. But that's not a question that everyone knows the answer to.

Heather: Yeah, I agree. I think there's a lot of space for innovation here, which is exciting because that's the kind of place you want to be. But the best innovation comes from diversity. That's in all the reports, if you Google that, McKinsey and all these big consultancies will tell you diversity is key. Actually, what you find is when you bring different stakeholders together from a systems perspective, you're already getting so much more diversity.

Julia: When you say that, what do you mean in practice? You said bring stakeholders together? Because I talk to people all the time. I'm literally in and out of meetings. How do I do that from a systems perspective? What practically do I do?

Heather: Oh, great question. I suspect it's already a systems approach that you were applying when you bring people together. I think what's really key in a systems approach is that space to listen and reflect and understand the perspectives of others. If you're in a meeting with a specific agenda and you've got to deliver on some objective for yourself, and that's the sole purpose of that meeting, that's not really inherently a systems approach. But if you attend that meeting with an open mind and the intention of listening to and reflecting on the perspectives that others bring, which may be contradictory, which may be misaligned, that's the start of the systems conversation.

Julia: Got you.

Heather: The next thing to do, you may not even need to, your brain might work in the systems way already, and you may not need the support of a visual representation, but here I am with my notebook for our chat today. I need the support tool, the comfort blanket. That's where mapping the system just puts on paper what you are discussing and creating verbally as a community. Whether together in person or online, you're putting structure to the system that you were defining collectively together. And that systems map is really helpful because it shows you the nature of the relationships. It shows you the impact of those dependencies.

So by using things like feedback loops and particular tools, and how you draw the arrows, you can show where one particular actor in a system, a stakeholder, has an adverse impact on someone, so it is detrimental to them, or has a positive one, and understanding that is really key. So when we talk about nature, a great example is looking at decarbonisation, and the reason systems maps are so important there. And it will be true for biodiversity net gain on a development as well. It's because there's always trade-offs and unintended consequences. And unless you understand the system, you won't have sight of those and you won't be able to take a conscious decision what you're trading off. And I think that's really critical.

Julia: I know exactly what you mean. The one thing that I'm worried about is what are the impacts on people from biodiversity net gain? We have a policy that's biodiversity net gain and there's many local policies looking at the health impacts of a development. Now, to me, if there's a policy that says undertake a health impact assessment of this development, is that development and biodiversity net gain? But because the policy doesn't specifically say it, there's, I think, a little bit of a missing gap there. You know, some people are picking up, some people are not. And what we can have is biodiversity net gain that enriches and enhances people's access to green space. But it could go the other way. And when you think of a systems approach, what you've just described, that would just be captured.

Heather: It would be. You'd have clarity of that trade off because I guess, in understanding your system, you'd have thought about what access might that development have to other green spaces if my BNG enhancement is going to be a protected wildflower garden for pollinators. Actually, hearing all those different perspectives is really fascinating and working your way through the dependencies is a game changer for biodiversity.

For example, there's this guy, Tom Chi, who I follow, who is a founder of At One Venture Capital in California, I think they're based. And he's got this incredible investment his organisation is making in vaccinations for pollinator bees to protect them from bacterial infections of one particular nature. And you just think, that's because he's mapped this system. If we can't immediately create all these thriving environments, if there's other risks in the system where, even if you make a beautiful wildflower garden, this motorway that is built right beside it is going to create this problem, or this water quality issue is going to lead to these bacterial infections, whatever those other dependencies are. A vaccination for bees is not something I'd have ever thought of from a BNG or carbon perspective, because half the plants are plants that require pollinators to thrive. And so you know, the system, it not only helps make your solutions, it helps you better define your need in the first place.

Julia: So what's your practical advice for BNG ecologists or landscape architects? When it comes to biodiversity net gain, it does tend to go to the ecologist, but more and more we're seeing – which is great, it should be – the biodiversity net gain ecologist and the landscape architect working hand in hand. What's your practical advice? If they're listening to this thinking, you know what, that sounds great. Where do they start?

Heather: They have to start at the beginning. They have to be part of the definition of the outcome. So, before you've even got the plans drawn up for your new development, what do I want this to deliver for people and planet? And to have those voices at the table, that's the systems conversation. You don't need to map it, but let me at least listen. What would an ecologist want? What would a member of the community want? What would the local doctor's surgery want out of this development so that people and nature can thrive? And let's be honest, people don't thrive without nature anyway so you don't even have to… nature should just be intrinsic when you think from an outcomes perspective, and that may lead you to developments that are naturally enhancing of biodiversity without an obligation, without the need for a marketplace.

Julia: You've mentioned Nature Positive, which is this lovely collective global goal. And I love the fact, because we're all members of the global community and let's have more nature in the world. I mean, talk about simplicity. Yes, please, let's have more nature in the world.

Heather: I think the biggest enabler is for our timescales to shift. We need to think longer term. And that is going to be a huge ask of a private sector that, as an accountant I'm all too familiar with, is used to reporting with a quarterly rhythm and these reporting cycles are just so contradictory to the investment that's needed for nature and they lead you down a different path towards your options and your solutions that you deliver, which are not advantageous over a longer time frame. So, if you frame it, you know, trees have a different sense of time to people. They endure for hundreds of years, many of them, if not longer. Rivers have a different perspective of time. Still, if we're trying to make decisions that impact and are related to nature and trees and rivers, our decision-making framework, our timescales, must shift.

Julia: You're talking commercially?

Heather: Absolutely commercially, but across everything.

Julia: Right, so politically, for society...?

Heather: For businesses, one quick, I don't know if it's a quick win, but here's my challenge to businesses. They have this going concern statement they publish in the front of their accounts where they say that they confirm that they will remain a going concern, a viable entity for the next 12 months. OK. That is how long we are challenging our businesses to commit to surviving. That's crazy. Imagine if I applied that principle to how I'm raising my children. Let me sign off this year's report, a going concern statement, they will be all right for the next 12 months. I mean, that's not going to cut it, is it?

Julia: When you put it like that…

Heather: So just extend the time. I make it sound simple. I know it's very, very difficult and I think organisations like B Corps, that are encouraging people to change their articles of incorporation, and to give permission for that longer term perspective, is a really critical enabler. But only by taking that longer term perspective will you a) have the time you need to gather the data to provide the certainty around nature and natural solutions, Nature Positive solutions, but also for them to emerge as a viable option.

Julia: Now your thing is, you're saying that long-term thing, and I'm just thinking how impossible that is. We have a very short political turnover. We have a very short commercial turnover, you're right. Things change so fast. To be fair, when the last Government in the UK did publish a 25-year Environment Plan, I mean, you could argue that even that's not long enough. But, as I'm saying to you, hang on a sec, that's impossible, I'm hearing you say that's the systems thinking that can help, is that right? Then you would join up those dots, you'd make the connections between, OK, this is the political cycle, this is the commercial cycle, but actually, society is generations.

Heather: Yes, I think there's very little that humans can't achieve.

Julia: Is there anything important about systems thinking and Nature Positive and biodiversity net gain that we've not talked about?

Heather: Yeah. I think systems thinking and Nature Positive, they take time to think and we are so bent on rapid decision-making, straight into delivery. So we're going to have to shift and spend more time thinking upfront. They also require more engagement, conversations with others and working collaboratively. And those are hard because we're not used to doing it and they cost money. And so we need to be eager to, or looking to, fund these different ways of working, in the same way that they fund a new app on an iPhone in like a heartbeat, right?

Julia: Yeah, exactly.

Heather: I mean, the kinds of things that are, that we pay for, is extraordinary. Some of the technology, even in this room today, I think, oh, my gosh, we've got cameras that follow us around the room, but we're here having a conversation about whether we can plant some wildflowers in a development so that people can have a better quality of life. That's crazy! So I think we need to prioritise and allow the money to go to where it's needed and pay for these conversations to happen.

Julia: What's your greatest fear? So, when it comes to thinking about our world and everything that we've just discussed, we cannot keep… this rise of nature is absolutely essential, not just for society, but for our industry. And it's a really exciting time, but there are things that I'm really worried about. What is your greatest fear? And what do we need to do to act on that?

Heather: Someone did tell me if we don't address this problem, we're not going to have coffee. So that is a genuine concern of mine. Can you imagine?
Julia: You're absolutely kidding?

Heather: No Nature Positive, no coffee.

Julia: Right, we're starting now.

Heather: Yeah. In all seriousness, I'm a Canadian and I love the snow. I think snow is like, having worked for a water company, it's the cheapest, most effective way to store water at a time when you don't need it so that you can gradually melt it and trickle it into your supply at a time when you do. And I'm desperate for us to have snow on this planet for all the joy and pleasure that it brings to everybody. So I think my fear is that, if we don't take action soon enough by adapting some of our regulatory frameworks, by looking at our policy horizons, I think we may end up in a world with no snow. No snow and no coffee. Who would want that?

Julia: Your work and the way that you've applied systems thinking to all of your life, I think your career is really inspirational. The way that you've taken that accounting and then worked out to where you are and you're absolutely team nature, it's brilliant. Who is your role model?

Heather: Role model? I've so many, it's difficult to put it on just one person. Who would I really lean on? I think I've learned so much from the founder of Ella's Kitchen, Paul Lindley, and he's been integral not only to my B Corp journey, but actually we've kept in touch and he's been working really hard on the national food strategy and looking at obesity and how to address inequalities in access to healthy food. He's now the Chancellor at Reading University, who are also leading the way from a climate perspective. You may have seen the climate stripes developed by Ed Hawkins, Reading University? Here is a person with a great idea who just made it his own and went with it. And he works tirelessly, relentlessly to help drive change.

And I see that with all the day-to-day role models that I get the privilege of engaging with through my role in my local climate change partnership at the moment, where it's people giving up time every day to do a little bit. You may not feel like you're making headway and the progress may not look that tangible, but I can honestly say it has an impact. It may not be until a few years down the road that you see something come about as a consequence of the discussion you had a few years previously. So, just to all those local role models doing whatever they can, whether it's picking up litter, explaining it to their children or participating in their local climate change partnership, to just be engaged, I really value that and I look up to those people every day.

Julia: If someone is just starting out in their career and they're like, this is nature's time, and they're just entering our industry, what's your advice?

Heather: There's a lot of information available out there to learn and digest. And I think if nature's your bag, if that's really where you see yourself thriving, I would really recommend this book by Robin Wall Kimmerer called Braiding Sweetgrass, which has really transformed how I perceive nature and the systems of nature. She's got a biology background, I believe, but is also a member of the Potawatomi Nation, the First Nations, and just the most beautiful, articulate storyteller.

Julia: OK, let's just make sure we capture it. Who was the author?

Heather: Robin Wall Kimber and it's called Braiding Sweetgrass.

Julia: I'm going to read it.

Heather: It will just transform how you think and feel about nature and how you choose to live in your own lives.

Julia: Heather, thank you very much.

Heather: Thank you for having me.